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NEWTS
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| Bond009 | Date: Wednesday, 03-Apr-2019, 7:49 PM | Message # 1 |
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| Guys lets have a discussion about this.. hear me out.
I first put these into CHF way back when Chrisica mastered maulers, they got so OP and there was no way to stop them in the end. They walked in a base killed everything and left and repeat until they won.
There was also mass golemers like Cheesy running around with like 8+ Golems. it became nearly impossible to counter that once he got going.. At that pont it was too late because it became hard to make gold and even if you did he was making more gold at a faster rate then you could locking down the map killing all heros.
So I introduced a creep to help counter that and trap them magic immune units and heros. Golems often had good support heros and allies with hero killing spells and AoEs etc.. So the newt needed to have pretty good HP, good defense and be semi magic immune. It needed to be semi OP in order to counter some of that stuff, but you only needed to have like 1-3 to stop them and even then it was hard because they would get trapped and die.
Golems main reason for existing is in the old foots you couldnt always have a stun because of -AR so golems were there for a stun and also to counter the Granite golem to perma stun lock him. Thats it really.
The issue is newts become part of the golem creep party and then became part of the problem.. lol They were kinda OP for that reason and then are now abused somewhat because they are so good.
They need to be fixed to be limited to what they were intended for which is why I made them cost 3 food in 4.1.
I know a lot of you dont like this that are used to using them because they make playing and creeping a lot easier. But this does need to be fixed no question about it, you know its true lol.
I wouldnt even mind making golems stronger again like they used to be if newts were limited or removed from the picture of the creeping party.
Its like I introduced something into the environment to fix something and then it became part of the problem and instead of introducing something more to fix that problem i want to just fix the main problem.
Their net cant be dispelled and only way to escape is a tp. Thats unrealistic to only have 1 counter thats not cheap and in the middle of the map.
I thought about making the net be dispellable but that would make it not work as well to do what it was made for, Counter creepers a bit and also Maulers.
I think 3 food is fine for these and maybe even up their cost a bit. You guys are welcome to make suggestions on ways you think this problem could be better fixed.
People that used to micro hard and creep used to have to work hard for it and be pro and newts made them able to be lazier because its like they just cant die until you have great tech or high lvl heros or also a very pro team. I think newts are a big part of why 5.4 and 5.5 people dont play and a lot of pubs left.
If not up the food i'd like to limit the amount a player can have of them to max 2, similar to the mana dragons. Haha imagine if mana dragons had no limit how broken that would get..
I'm all ears how to solve this improper use of newts! 
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| t33vs1er | Date: Wednesday, 03-Apr-2019, 9:47 PM | Message # 2 |
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| They should cost 100 gold more, and food should be set to two. But again, the current "creeper" who win most game win because if you check replays, their APM is 200+ (you can see that on certain youtube vids). You cannot nerf that. Is it then the newts, or the players that is the issue? Franckly I never make more than 2 newts. I honestly do not find them too op.
However, you need to adress the main issue - namely donation.
Not only do they get tons of gold, but they get second hero with dono too... and... make unilimited basevaults to get EVEN more gold... and set up a trap that you have to get a secret item that costs 1000+ gold in secret shop (which most pubs don't know of). There is the real imbalance, because that noob can actually win the good players this way.
How will poor techers like me counter golemers now... we had the benefit of destroying golemers, now we will not even be strong against that! Basically everything counters tech if newts becomes too expensiv and hard to get...
TeeVz
Added (03-Apr-2019, 9:52 PM)
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Donation wins every game now. That is a fact. Unless some golemer rushes them and win the game fast, but that is not easy and not a guarrateed win. Unless a team has mass aoe, donation will win most of the time, unless total noobs.
Message edited by t33vs1er - Wednesday, 03-Apr-2019, 10:45 PM |
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| Bond009 | Date: Thursday, 04-Apr-2019, 1:40 AM | Message # 3 |
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| yeah that may be ok to add 100 gold to them.. i forget are golems 2 food now? what if i made newts 3 food and made golems 1 food again? The gold cost isnt as big of an issue as how many newts they can stack up. esp if everyone on the team can get more than 2.. 6 newts would be hard for anyone to stop let alone 9 newts or more.. Even if its a pro team vs pro team they would have to get their own newts to counter it because newts dont really have a direct counter, especially in early game.
Donation will have a few fixes, some are already done in 4.1 like i think summons no longer count as units. and the amount of gold is nerfed and the cd time on the spell was upped and ToT can no longer be gotten until t4 so they cant just stop at t3 human and bunker down so hard.. quite a few things will all add up to make donation not so imba. Its a good thing at that point because they keep units at the risk of losing them all and feeding other massive gold and xp. Its a neat dynamic and a good trade off. But i agree as it is now it can easily get out of hand and be imbalanced.
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| t33vs1er | Date: Thursday, 04-Apr-2019, 12:58 PM | Message # 4 |
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| Quote Bond009 (  ) yeah that may be ok to add 100 gold to them.. i forget are golems 2 food now? what if i made newts 3 food and made golems 1 food again? The gold cost isnt as big of an issue as how many newts they can stack up. esp if everyone on the team can get more than 2.. 6 newts would be hard for anyone to stop let alone 9 newts or more.. Even if its a pro team vs pro team they would have to get their own newts to counter it because newts dont really have a direct counter, especially in early game.
No golems are good were they are. They dont need to cost one food. Beginners get much more frustrated dealing with mass rock golems than dealing with newts.
Regarding newts, they are strong early game, but late game they die. Just like certain strats are op late game but weak early. That's the dynamique of the game - you pick an early game strat, you will have an advantage early, but lose in the late game, and vice versa. That's key to the whole strategic aspect of the game.
I have never seens a game with 9 newts on one player. Never ever.
You mention that newts do not have any other counters for than to tp out - sure, but that goes for many other stuns. Many stuns like firebolt and storm bolt do not even offer that option. So it is in my book a weaker stun. The only way that the newt's stun is in any way "superior" to any other stun is that it can stun golems, but that was as you mention the initial purpose of them and I believe it to be essential for balance.
Regarding donation: yesterday, 3 in-houses (kind off) were played. Each 3 of them was won by the team who had... you guessed it... donation. And they were not necessarily the best players.
But I will give you suggestions for balance in a different thread. These will be suggestions discussed with other very active players (which I may list in the thread).
I do not agree with your take on newts, but I am still happy you put time into this game, and especially that oyu are open to suggestions.
-Teevz
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| khan_me | Date: Thursday, 04-Apr-2019, 3:11 PM | Message # 5 |
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| I dont think you need to increase price of newts. the real problem is Newts have 800hp with fortified Armor 5. if you really think newts are problem then just remove the Armor from fortified to Armor 4. Newts are fine with 2 food. Also turtle clone, Lizzard pyo should be able to eat them.
I think I best player in the world ty np )()()()()()()()(
[̲̲̅̅D̲̲̅̅a̲̲̅̅n̲̲̅̅G̲̲̅̅e̲̲̅̅r̲̲̅̅O̲̲̅̅u̲̲̅̅S̲̲̅̅] ︻╦̵̵͇̿̿̿̿ KhAN-╤───
https://www.facebook.com/Warcraft3-2065832830309464/
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| DooMs | Date: Thursday, 04-Apr-2019, 3:23 PM | Message # 6 |
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| No no no and no !! Newts are easy to kill wtf
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| Web-Ghost | Date: Thursday, 04-Apr-2019, 4:04 PM | Message # 7 |
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| Quote khan_me ( ) turtle clone
i feel like turtle clone is too weak atm
[img][/img]
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| l3etuce | Date: Thursday, 04-Apr-2019, 4:07 PM | Message # 8 |
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| Quote DooMs ( ) No no no and no !! Newts are easy to kill wtf
agree . do not change anything on this geeko animal. they are my pet leave them alone
I love green leetuce
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| Bond009 | Date: Thursday, 04-Apr-2019, 11:26 PM | Message # 9 |
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| no need to worry about newts being nerfed too much really, they need to be strong for what they're meant for. I just want to make sure they are controlled a bit and within limits.
Maybe i'll just make them 2 food instead of 3 like in 4.1 (4.0c they're 1 food i think) and make the net cost some mana at least. thats probably all the needs done.
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| Adam_CZ | Date: Saturday, 06-Apr-2019, 11:59 PM | Message # 10 |
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| Newts are OP because they have resistant skin. You can not kill bob the newt with Yamato Cannon level 3. Do you now about it Bond? Fucking Yamato Cannon lvl 3 (3000 HP damage) doesnt kill fucking newt with HP less than 1000. All you need to do Is remove resistant skin.
Message edited by Adam_CZ - Sunday, 07-Apr-2019, 0:00 AM |
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