Teevz, come on man.. look at the change log for 4.1, look at the spells list all the buffs done were to things other than AoE's and some AoEs were nerfed. There were so many other balance changes and fixes in 4.1 that made it better as well, units were buffed a bit as well. I dont know about it being released prematurely as its the biggest version ever done by at least 6x, i think if anything it was way too long overdue. That was maybe part of the problem is its too much change all at once but all needed changes. One of the biggest contributors to this change log was F00ty_reb0rn which he was skilled and knew the game well also. We didnt just think of random balance changes for the lolz, 4.1 is more balanced no doubt, but i wont argue that AoE's may still be stronger than they should, but no worse than older ver's if anything its a little better.
I had a brief look. I did not see much change in the AOE spells. and if there has been any change, they are obviously VERY small. Remember, the aoe player will have the benefit of gaining addition Levels from mass (which is not that significant for a techer). so maybe the Aoe is a bit nerfed, but they get quicker to higher Level - which is a signifcant buff since… again when you play AOE it is all about Levels. In addition to the extra gold, they can tome up in no time.
When People join game, they say Things like "I just lol'ed when bond said he nerfed AOE". I sympatize With them.
In the older Versions you had powerful serpent Wards that helped the techer gain higher Levels. not that it was easier to rush in 4.0c which was the og-to way to gain an advantage for golemers and techers. This is now out the window due to everyone getting more or less similare Levels post mass, and... having higher Levels in general post mass.
Additionally you had golemers (who all now just mass aoe, since you cannot really golem in 4.1) who now will aoe the techers ass.
MIND YOU: I really do not mind the idea of a more Equal mass (by adding more footies and strong scroll of the beast - i consider this a good change! since it encourages the use of auras!), but I am skeptical of footies walking to the side, since good players will always pull them back anyway, making the mass even more unfair to pubs.
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AoEs are a bit hard to balance because of some of the things you mentioned about 5.5, 1 or 2 spells isnt that bad but if someone gets 3 aoe's or each player on a team gets 2 AoEs and all works together well then thats 6 AoE's hitting units and that is going to do some damage regardless how weak i make AoEs.
That is exactly the problem, in addition to having the ability to combine the best aoe's With Divine Shield or windwalk (although the latter is EASY to Counter)
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Instead of a Free for all with picking spells I probably need to make the main normal mode where each team can only pick each spell once at least for their first hero.. So if red picks a Carrion wave or serp wards blue and teal then can't. I thought about making that a mode many years ago but just did -SDS mode at the time but that should probably be the main game to make it much more balanced.. Then make the way the game is now a mode as -FFA so then its free for all skills picking.
I really dig this idea!
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I could also give all units a 10-15% spell reduction and then NE a bit more since they already have a spell reduction, so that would in turn nerfs all AoE's to units across the board by 10-15%. I may just try that first for next version to see how it goes..
Well if you proceed With the solution presenting above where you can only pick spells once, then a 10% should be enough. 5% is enough if you also nerf tomes.
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I may have buffed water too much because i didnt just give them 75% spell reduction i think i also gave them better everything and aoe splash damage, they might be ok i guess but it was a bigger change than i expected lol I honestly didnt nerf serpant wards that much how are they so bad now? They used to rape mass pretty bad in old versions even more so than AoE's so i nerfed them slightly. Pros would always get them because they were OP for mass, pros dont just get weak stuff they get strong stuff and serp wards were a main go-to spell which flags it as stronger than most others. i either needed to nerf them slightly or buff all other summons which i started to do. What do you think wrecks serp wards so bad? I can undo that change and see if it affected them that bad.
in the current state water elementals are not imbalanced but a force to reckong With. Perhaps a nerf to 50% would be idea?
Regarding serpents, they now do piercing instad of Magic damage. Footmen are resistance to piercing, so it deals little damage. additionally, the cool Down has been decreased. Major nerf.
Regarding newts: I have the Version I got from you, and they cost 3 Food and they are nerfed to Death. I may be wrong, but please take a second look.
Keeping newts as they were but make them 2 Food and cost 425 gold is a good enough nerf.
Regarding golems: put them back to what they were. Blank didn't need nerf, and really, the stun of the rock golem is kind of weak. Golems are only as strong as the players using them - at least in 4.0c.
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there is a bit more money too, use that to get the unit XP and add some HP to the units you're rushing with. If you win mass there can still be lvl 4-5 heros after mass sometimes. Teching was never a easy thing to do without a competent team so that hasn't changed its like that in 5.5 too, but if you have a good team teching is still the trump card that wins games more so than anything else
VERY TRUE! But I use unit exp on fiends and by the time i am set up With fiends (newts, turtle, fiends, some Upgrades, aura and Wards and scroll) it is a bit too late for unit exp since ennemy aoe is already too strong.
Also very true that teching is best done in teams. in fact I have only managed to win (although With difficulty) With a good mate recently. but I like the idea of playing solo or somewhat solo. 4.1 has forced me to stack ,which I really do not like for many reasons.
Also a stacked aoe team will beat a tech team.
I like the final suggestions you made.
i think we agree more than you think.
Regarding buffing summons: - the bigs! needs a buff. - the beetles should be put back to what they were in 4.0c and same With treants, although added more Magic resistance on higher Level. The pigs should be buffer drastically, same With that flying Hawk.
Also, buff all the auras nobody uses! i think you know which one… I know you buff them but they need more buffing.
Tech is imba lol, I just lose when im 1v2 or 1v3, if 2v2 tech is so easy. Solo I always get lev5-6 with 2 aura +lasso, u guys never micro any footmans. Unholy aura +micro footies + taunt and clone from turtle u can't fail the mass rofl.
Regarding serpents, they now do piercing instad of Magic damage. Footmen are resistance to piercing, so it deals little damage. additionally, the cool Down has been decreased. Major nerf.Regarding newts: I have the Version I got from you, and they cost 3 Food and they are nerfed to Death. I may be wrong, but please take a second look.
Keeping newts as they were but make them 2 Food and cost 425 gold is a good enough nerf.
Regarding golems: put them back to what they were. Blank didn't need nerf, and really, the stun of the rock golem is kind of weak. Golems are only as strong as the players using them - at least in 4.0c.
yeah true i can change them back to magic Just checked newts and golems are 2 food and Blanks are 1 food, i think the only things i did was nerf some of the armor it was maybe -2 or -3 armor ( think they had like 5-6 before) but i can add it back but shocked it affects it that much. i'll take a look at the golems too
Quotet33vs1er ()
- the bigs! needs a buff.
whats that?
Agreed on the rest.
QuoteDooMs ()
Tech is imba lol, I just lose when im 1v2 or 1v3, if 2v2 tech is so easy. Solo I always get lev5-6 with 2 aura +lasso, u guys never micro any footmans. Unholy aura +micro footies + taunt and clone from turtle u can't fail the mass rofl.
make up your minds is tech strong enough or not! lol
Quotet33vs1er ()
The inferno is now litterally unkillable…. it is WAY OP. give it less hitpoints! Serious nerf needed.And ofc, you cannot eat it With turtle.
I havent noticed any issues vs the infernals yet, if you have at least 1 or 2 frosts its not so bad vsing in base. Turtles counter will be back, although it might not have affect infernals, you sure they cant eat them still? 2 newts to nets it and a catapult can take it down pretty easy or 2-3 golems can perma bash it, or an arcane towers and frost towers can render it pretty weak.
That is a good idea. Considering the lower cool Down for casting, it would already Equal a nerf. If you really have to nerf them, you may Lowe their damage by 1-2 Points, but it is not that necessary. To be honest I prefer playing water elementals now anyway, even at low Levels they are good (in mass that is!)
Regarding newts: you are right - in the Version I host, they are 2 Food. Apparently People keep hosting the beta Version for some reason…. annoying!
how much were newts nerfed in the beta? maybe I am basing my observation too much on the beta when it comes to newts. Perhaps add 1 one armour should be good enough.
When I wrote "bigs" i meant "the pigs" or quillbeast. The still need a buff, same With those Hawks.
Regarding dooms and tech - I cannot remember the last time he won solo vs stacked teams of good/decent players With tech. He is not a guy who I have seen tech much lately. But he is right that a team of 2 or 3 With teching is strong, but so is the case in EVERY teamup. I think we can all agree on that.
He even told me that according to him: a stacked golem team would win a stacked tech team - partly due to granite golem that the team will eventually acquire, and the fact that they may og tripple Phoenix, or if they have aoe's in their team. He also knows that tech teams are vulnerable to rushes. I don't agree With the Phoenix part since fiends can web them and kite them. regarding granite, it can be eaten by turtle (you said you would fix this 100%) or at worse, newte them and kite it. It is also an expensive unit! and With the same amount of gold a tech-team coul also do some pretty crazy shit.
,I do believe that tech wins over golems mid-game! That's the strenght of tech - countering golems! Now if the golem team can Counter tech (i.e. the Counter to their strat) through adding some aoe (something dooms has not hesitated pointing out)… then.. NO tech is not op.
So AOE teams > Tech Teams Golem Team > tech teams... if added at least 3 aoes in are added into the mix of the team (and their will be other aoe players from other teams focusing the tech team as well, helping the goleming team out greatly anyway)
I will let you make up Your mind if tech is op.
I remember having had problems winning With tech even when playing With dooms as support vs mass aoe. And I cannot remember the last time dooms won With tech vs a full house of AOE... even With decent teammates. His tech vieos on youtube although good are vs average players and minimal aoe. His golems videos are sick though as he Plays even vs good players.
But again he is a golemer
Regarding inferno: Well, it is much stronger than Death Tower now and it actually deals significant damage to the newts. I suggest you try inferno as ulti to see for yourself - it is afterall not a ulti that is hard to play. It is one of the must used ultis these days, and it is not unusual to having to deal With up to 3 of them per game.
3 full Control Groups of 8-1 fiends had struggle taking it Down and it did significant damage to it.
It also totally rekts donation (which you have balanced well - aside from inferno)
That said, I think we should re-introduce summons into the Equation of donation… as it may be a bit too nerfed + it motivates players to play summons a bit more! Which I believe it a good thing. Now that you cannot that easily make traps, as well as the increased cool Down, in addition to not being able to abuse bugs (that was a BIG one) I believe dono is not too imba.
HOWEVER! Keep in mind that if you nerf AOE and add Magic resistance to units, you indirectly buff donation! Although not my problem since i don't play either donation, nor do i Focus on mass aoe, I think it is fair to point this out.
I think With all these suggestions, we are well on Our way for a VERY GOOD 4.1a
Message edited by t33vs1er - Wednesday, 24-Jul-2019, 4:03 AM
All good points, esp with donation being buffed with weaker aoes and stronger units.
notes to self for addressing in update: newts add back 1-2 armor either nerf aoes a bit or add spell resistance to units Or change it so each spell can only be picked once per team for first hero as normal. This might be a 4.2 thing though as that could be pretty time consuming work. buff back golems a bit rest of the fixes like turtle is already on list too.
You should to make "super golems" with blink, critical damage, more hp, attack, defense and speed attack. Recipe 1200 gold. U made it for Jamie and priest, why not for golems now?
Message edited by DooMs - Thursday, 25-Jul-2019, 5:32 AM
Bond, I really like the changes. I love the longer games and it is more balanced. Just hope bots come back as i am too lazy to keep hosting. OttoJ, The Old Man I play for fun, fast wins bore me and make me feel mean.
notes to self for addressing in update:newts add back 1-2 armor either nerf aoes a bit or add spell resistance to units Or change it so each spell can only be picked once per team for first hero as normal. This might be a 4.2 thing though as that could be pretty time consuming work. buff back golems a bit rest of the fixes like turtle is already on list too.
Teevz help me consolidate all the things we talked about like changing wards back to magic dmg etc. I'm going on vacation and i'll have a little time to work on 4.1a.
Got whooped twice by a team that micro and tech at the same time in less than 10 min. Most of the issues you stated above are due to needing to learn the new balance and how to take advantage of it. So it is possible to get back to short games that focus on a team that knows how to balance spells and creeps and tech. Was kindof fun, but hated it that they feed off of noobs then kill me. Oh well, that is my life.
Bond,
I miss the -control command. When i have noobs it stinks to not be able to move thier units to my cannon when they feed, but i realize it was abused so i understand why it is not back. OttoJ, The Old Man I play for fun, fast wins bore me and make me feel mean.
Teevz,Got whooped twice by a team that micro and tech at the same time in less than 10 min. Most of the issues you stated above are due to needing to learn the new balance and how to take advantage of it. So it is possible to get back to short games that focus on a team that knows how to balance spells and creeps and tech. Was kindof fun, but hated it that they feed off of noobs then kill me. Oh well, that is my life.Bond,I miss the -control command. When i have noobs it stinks to not be able to move thier units to my cannon when they feed, but i realize it was abused so i understand why it is not back.
It was a 3 player team. 3 player teams can whoop most players.
That said they played well.
Agreed on the command thing. I hate when I cant Control ally footies in mass.
Teevz help me consolidate all the things we talked about like changing wards back to magic dmg etc. I'm going on vacation and i'll have a little time to work on 4.1a.
- Turtle being able to eat granite - Serpent Wards back to Magic damage (but With the same cool Down as per 4.1) - Buff the less used summons - Newts are ok, turns out it was the beta that was being hosted. - Golems back to what they were. - Buff all "shit" auras - Nerf inferno a bit - Buff all unused spells - Increase cooldown or price on tomes - this is a big one because it allows better players to get EVEN more of an advantage than they already have. - A bit more magical resistance on tech units - A bit of a nerf on Level 5 and 6 aoe. They are WAY too strong. - Rebuff donation a bit, nobody uses it no more lol.
Not sure if this is the place to suggest changes, but I don't think you should be able to heal Chimera's. Just got smoked in a SSD game by dooms when he massed chimera and healing. If they could be affected by spells by me, then i think they should be able to be healed, but if can't be affect by my spells, then they should not be affected by thier team spells. OttoJ, The Old Man I play for fun, fast wins bore me and make me feel mean.
This is the worst version, now it's so easy to counter golems,u can do it 1v3, u just need 1 spell :charm ulti. U can charm newts, blank, priest etc at lev1 ONLY. You have to micro 12 units with 200 apm and 1 noob can rape you with 1 hotkey :V. If you re smart you won't host 4.1 anymore. About aoe the first who get lev 16 wins( he reskills and gg). Let's back on 4.0a seriously.
Message edited by DooMs - Tuesday, 17-Sep-2019, 3:59 AM
