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Forum » CHF Development and Discussion » Balancing Current Game Content » Why I Dislike CHF 4.1 (Balance issues)
Why I Dislike CHF 4.1 (Balance issues)
t33vs1erDate: Tuesday, 09-Jul-2019, 9:59 AM | Message # 1
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Hi there,

I have now gotten a New computer and played the latest Version a few times and I must say I do not like the changes.

The ideas where good, and I must say the donation nerf was well in Place.

But beside that, there were promises of AOE nerfing so that People could actually tech and win With tech without needing 250 apm + pool (or a total pub game). Sadly Things have become much worse for the techers. It is not fully impossible to win With tech. here is why:
- Aoe has been nerfed but the change4s are totally insignificant
- serpent Wards that were used to gain gold for teching has been nerfed - so less gold for the techer.
- Mass is longer, and even though it gives the techer a bit of extra godl and some hero Levels, it benefits the aoe players. Not only will he get the godl to tome the fuck up really quickly, he will also have strong aoe right after mass is done. getting up to Level 16 With aoe has never been easier. And it therefore reduces if not completely removes the window the techer used to have to win. The Level up is more beneficial to the AOE player than the techer. The AOE player gets higher Levels faster, but the techer does not get fiends any faster since the tech is still delayed IT IS FOR THIS REASON THAT TECHING IS WORST OFF IN THE NEW VERSION.

And Golems… don't get me started… they are nerfed to hell and since the hero Level of aoe players are higher post mass, rushes and goleming becomes harder. Not only that, the golemer will have weaker mercs agaisnt stronger heroes….

4.1 is worse off balanced-wise compared to 4.0c. I hate to say it, but it is the truth. If the idea was to make 4.1 more balanced, then sadly Things have gone South. The reasons for why good players have turned to footy 5.5 have mostly been ignored. CHF has more than ever been a AOE hero arena and for thsoe who enjoy this monotonous playstyle will be happier than ever. for the rest of us, we better hope for a more balanced Version. 

-TeeVz
 
Web-GhostDate: Tuesday, 09-Jul-2019, 1:05 PM | Message # 2
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sounds interesting... i might come online and try it out to get insta lvl 16 during mass smile

[img][/img]
 
Bond009Date: Friday, 12-Jul-2019, 9:59 PM | Message # 3
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Quote t33vs1er ()
Hi there,I have now gotten a New computer and played the latest Version a few times and I must say I do not like the changes.

The ideas where good, and I must say the donation nerf was well in Place.

But beside that, there were promises of AOE nerfing so that People could actually tech and win With tech without needing 250 apm + pool (or a total pub game). Sadly Things have become much worse for the techers. It is not fully impossible to win With tech. here is why:
- Aoe has been nerfed but the change4s are totally insignificant
- serpent Wards that were used to gain gold for teching has been nerfed - so less gold for the techer.
- Mass is longer, and even though it gives the techer a bit of extra godl and some hero Levels, it benefits the aoe players. Not only will he get the godl to tome the fuck up really quickly, he will also have strong aoe right after mass is done. getting up to Level 16 With aoe has never been easier. And it therefore reduces if not completely removes the window the techer used to have to win. The Level up is more beneficial to the AOE player than the techer. The AOE player gets higher Levels faster, but the techer does not get fiends any faster since the tech is still delayed IT IS FOR THIS REASON THAT TECHING IS WORST OFF IN THE NEW VERSION.

And Golems… don't get me started… they are nerfed to hell and since the hero Level of aoe players are higher post mass, rushes and goleming becomes harder. Not only that, the golemer will have weaker mercs agaisnt stronger heroes….

4.1 is worse off balanced-wise compared to 4.0c. I hate to say it, but it is the truth. If the idea was to make 4.1 more balanced, then sadly Things have gone South. The reasons for why good players have turned to footy 5.5 have mostly been ignored. CHF has more than ever been a AOE hero arena and for thsoe who enjoy this monotonous playstyle will be happier than ever. for the rest of us, we better hope for a more balanced Version.

-TeeVz


TeeVz thanks for the feedback.
honestly 4.1 is a big mix of a lot of things i did and fixed like 4-5 years ago and then all the added things i did over the past few months for fixes and balances which i have to get my notes together and still add that to the change log.

But some of those things i somewhat forget, i do know there were some pro golemers back in the days and a lot of people cried to have golems nerfed and the pros using them said to nerf them too so i took them for their word on that part. I can always buff them again i dont find them to be a problem and havent for a long time.. so i'm fine with it. I do know pubs still hate them but thats because they still have no idea of all the counters. Even the 5.5 ppl have no idea because they dont have knowledge of the game counters and added balances.
I have been tryingt o get some week creeps stronger like the Joza upgrade and the new priest enhancement etc.

For mass i did a lot of things, i made it move more even and smooth (if you have a good PC i guess) i didn't realize it would make people with old PCs actually lag more. I can fix that a bit in 4.1a but now that you have a new PC you're probably going to play even better if you used to lag.
Also i added more foots to make it a bigger and fuller mass. I noticed sometimes in 5.5 people hold units back longer going past dawn and makes for a bigger mass and was kinda neat so i made the mass bigger. This provides a bit more gold and xp too for everyone.
I thought this may make some spells better vs others so i made the scroll boost now 100% dmg boost rather than 75% this put more importance on the units attacking which should make for a more even mass outcome for everyone.
I also made the extra units come out after the main mass for a few reasons, 1 less lag, 2 it makes it so there isnt as big of a backup of units so it doesn't give more benefit to aoes like blizzard, flame strike, waves etc.. 3 the pros always sent out more units to help at mass but normal players never did so it now makes it a bit more universally even for the most important part of the game.

the mass only gets people maybe 1 more lvl than before, there is really no changes that get people to lvl 16 faster except maybe toming like you mentioned. I've always hated toming and thought it wrecked balance anyway and it was always meant to be more of a catch up option for people behind but it was a double edged sword to help the rich players already ahead get even more ahead. What i could do is make the next lvl tomes have a longer start stock delay so people cant just start toming too early in the game. That should help a lot, i already upped restock cd and the cost and broke it out between low lvl xp added and the next lvl tome at higher gold cost which helped a lot. toming is even more OP in 5.5

I dont remember the nerf serp wards got, i'd have to go look. I do remember they have more counters now though like creep cleave's work on them etc. Also a lot of other summons are now a bit better and more worth getting now, Water elementals probably almost need a nerf now as they seem pretty OP in later lvls now.

technically i could even lower the time or remove the delayed teching now because there is no gold for heros now so people cant abuse and use gold for teching before mass.

Tell me what you think of those ideas/methods of fixing the the issues you're seeing.

Also you have to remember too when you're playing 5.5 inhouses you're probably comparing all/mostly pro inhouse 5.5 games to normal mixed pro/pub games of team balances
in CHF games that you've been playing, with possible crap team mates vs good
teams. Team player balance changes things big time too, in fact thats
probably the biggest thing that affects the feel of game balance.

Also not to rant but this is the hard facts about 5.5 to add to what i already said before here https://chf.ucoz.com/forum/4-5033-2
Gunmen Frenzy 5.5 for dummy's:
  • Type -pool player# (the techer) right away (i hate this and think it wrecks/dumbs down/over simplifies the game, would never add that command in CHF, but when "pros" do it in 5.5 you have to do it too or gg)
  • pooled guy tech gunmen asap and get upgrade attack techs with all your pooled gold
  • get beast scrolls and speed scrolls
  • click around stun and kill a few heros and units
  • get a slight edge with a 1-3 level lead
  • then once enemy heros die go insta kill bases easy
  • gg in 10-15 mins 97% of games (even the inhouse games typically)


So actual game play time minusing the 5 mins you wait to have enough units to mass is about average 8 mins. you wait in lobby for game to fill forever for 8 mins of game play.

I know why people like 5.5, they know the simple imba balance and are used to it and except it from many years of getting used to it and dealing with it, they are fast games, its repetitive and know exactly what to do each game (steps mentioned above). Also some heros are obviously a lot better than others but its mostly just about getting strong gunmen asap and killing the base.

I think that maybe some of the things i think are the worst features of 5.5 are maybe what people like about it so i cant help that i guess. like for example the terrible game mechanics or all your units dying when your base dies? that seems ridiculous, what good games are like that? imagine if ladder/melee was like that.. when your starting castle died everything died.. that would wreck so many strategies and change the dynamic of the game so badly.
But thats not even the worst part, when a player leaves or desyncs all their stuff dies too? for that reason alone that game is total trash. to not be able to take their gold, micro their stuff, use their hero, towers, etc.. why should a team be so crippled because a player leaves.
Granted those 2 things mentioned above make the games very simple and fast to end games. There is another 100+ things i could list that are also bad but i'll leave it at those 2 huge game mechanic flaws and cal it good.

I try to get 5.5 people to play and try CHF and i get a mix of 2-3 types of people.
1. people that are too stuck in their ways with their old 5.4/5.5 game and dont care to try and learn new things
2. people that tried it once and had a crap team or unaware of the balance and counters so they lost bad, wrecked their ego and labeled it as 'CHF sucks' cant give a reason why but just say chf sucks.
3. people that played sometimes over the past year or so and saw all the abuse and glitches/broken shit that Airbus and his guys used to do and it made them not like it (and that i cant blame them for, it sometimes made me hate it too.)
But they should at least try it again each version and see shits fixed and no more donation abuse, and moving ToT's up in front of base, harder to make a square of stores because of cd time etc.. Airbus had his long game broken strat down i gotta give him credit for perfecting the brokeness of all that. lol

Sorry end of rant.. smile
But anyway, to wrap it up I prefer quality over quantity aka CHF over 5.5. I'd rather get into a good long game sometimes than just play game after game of the same 12 min gunmen game. That being said i've seen plenty of CHF games end in 13-16 mins before in both pub and mostly pro games. Ive won and both lost that fast before against people. It was typically a combo of good techers and creeps that ended it so fast.


 
quarktalDate: Monday, 15-Jul-2019, 2:23 AM | Message # 4
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Hi bond,

There is such a thing as base killing before mass, especially if you got avalanche. Very frustrating. Why bases are not invulnerable before mass?

Also there is pretty much no counter to 3500g golem in no tech game. Moreover, you need much more gold to tech enough to kill golem while it smashes your allies. 

Rats kind of op during mass, i mean you cant quite counter them at that moment, mb it should have more cd, idk

New ulties kind of unplayable :v

In sds when you repick you lose all items

Some heroes almost impossible to click on (like skeleton archer etc), super annoying

AND WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU MAKE THE BLACK SHEEP 

:P)

©
[Kron]
 
Bond009Date: Monday, 15-Jul-2019, 8:54 PM | Message # 5
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Not sure why that glitch is not protecting all bases.. I can fix that though, good note. Also how come bases are able to be killed now avalanche has always been around.

yeah some changes glitched the turtle which was a nice counter to the golem, also newts, and if you have 3 golems you can perma bash him, those are the main counters. Tech is really how you need to take it down. Deadly wards help, D&D ulti, Yamato cannon ulit, those are the main ways to counter it that i can think of off hand. There is also many other ways to evade it so it doesnt bother you but not really killing it with those methods.

I'm not apposed to putting a longer cd on rats for mass. what do other think of that? best way to counter rats at mass is a blank golem to dispel though.

Yeah i could buff them a bit, i figrued best to not have them come out too OP and cause abuse. I have an idea of how to buff the mirror armor one, frost one may be ok as thats the only one i see people picking of the new ones.
How come no one picks the spirit one that kinda strong.. What did you have in mind i buff on it to make it worth getting? less cd? more damage?

In -SDS where and when did you repick? did you pick all spells and then repick?
you have to -repick before you pick any spells

yeah some models are a little odd so makes them a little hard to click.

Idk lol just made it as a troll hero. tongue think its more op than the other sheep? I feel its good but not that good..


 
t33vs1erDate: Wednesday, 17-Jul-2019, 3:20 PM | Message # 6
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Quote Bond009 ()
Not sure why that glitch is not protecting all bases.. I can fix that though, good note. Also how come bases are able to be killed now avalanche has always been around.yeah some changes glitched the turtle which was a nice counter to the golem, also newts, and if you have 3 golems you can perma bash him, those are the main counters. Tech is really how you need to take it down. Deadly wards help, D&D ulti, Yamato cannon ulit, those are the main ways to counter it that i can think of off hand. There is also many other ways to evade it so it doesnt bother you but not really killing it with those methods.I'm not apposed to putting a longer cd on rats for mass. what do other think of that? best way to counter rats at mass is a blank golem to dispel though.Yeah i could buff them a bit, i figrued best to not have them come out too OP and cause abuse. I have an idea of how to buff the mirror armor one, frost one may be ok as thats the only one i see people picking of the new ones.How come no one picks the spirit one that kinda strong.. What did you have in mind i buff on it to make it worth getting? less cd? more damage?In -SDS where and when did you repick? did you pick all spells and then repick?you have to -repick before you pick any spellsyeah some models are a little odd so makes them a little hard to click.Idk lol just made it as a troll hero. think its more op than the other sheep? I feel its good but not that good..


First and foremost - turtle cannot eat granite golem no more. there are no Counters to granite golems. This is not a good change. The turtle could always get dispelled by jammy, newts or wizards. It was never a hard Counter. Bring thsi back! Also turtle cannot eat another turtle… why???

Newts used to be good Counters to golems, but that's not necessary anymore because golemer lose every game now very easily anyway. Goleming is like one of the weakest options in CHF nowadays. 

newts used to be good, but now they die like flies and late game they die With 2 aoe strikes, like everything else. Totally useless unit at this point. Mid game they are decent still, but for 3 Food, you cannot golemith them anymore. 3 Food is way too much. Newts was never a problem really…. you could always tp out...

Get newts to two Food and give them a slight buff… because right now they are useless and if you plan to buff golems again, which you should…. because at thsi point they are a joke.... then we need stronger newts to Counter golems. 

Newts are not a Counter to granite since it kills the newts in 3 strikes almost lol.
 
DooMsDate: Thursday, 18-Jul-2019, 5:48 AM | Message # 7
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NO MORE GOLEMS ? RIP CHF
 
Bond009Date: Friday, 19-Jul-2019, 0:57 AM | Message # 8
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Quote t33vs1er ()
First and foremost - turtle cannot eat granite golem no more. there are no Counters to granite golems. This is not a good change. The turtle could always get dispelled by jammy, newts or wizards. It was never a hard Counter. Bring thsi back! Also turtle cannot eat another turtle… why???Newts used to be good Counters to golems, but that's not necessary anymore because golemer lose every game now very easily anyway. Goleming is like one of the weakest options in CHF nowadays.

newts used to be good, but now they die like flies and late game they die With 2 aoe strikes, like everything else. Totally useless unit at this point. Mid game they are decent still, but for 3 Food, you cannot golemith them anymore. 3 Food is way too much. Newts was never a problem really…. you could always tp out...

Get newts to two Food and give them a slight buff… because right now they are useless and if you plan to buff golems again, which you should…. because at thsi point they are a joke.... then we need stronger newts to Counter golems.

Newts are not a Counter to granite since it kills the newts in 3 strikes almost lol.


the turtles not being able to eat the big golems was a change in something else and it affected that so thats a mistake that will be fixed. I already have a good list going but i wanted to get everything to address all at once before i do the next version.
Also check for me if a turtle could ever eat another turtle? it probably could but not sure..

I dont think i nerfed nets strength much it was more so just making them cost 2 food and making the net cost a little mana. They still have 75% magic resistance. I can change them back to what they were in the last version and same with golems.

Make sure someone hasnt been hosting the old 4.1 beta version by mistake. Newts are only 2 food in real 4.1 you can always tell by heros costing wood not gold now. That was to fix some abuse issues and 2 hero mass getting all that extra gold.

lol tell me what version of CHF's golems you think they should be and we can see to bring them back to that as long as they arnt too OP. not sure how long you been around but way back in the day golems caused a lot of people to hate the game and leave because it was too easy to just mass golem and scare everyone.


 
DooMsDate: Friday, 19-Jul-2019, 1:59 AM | Message # 9
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The best version for golems, hk, aoe etc... is 4 0a for sure !!! U want to bring back old players? Make a 4.1a biggrin Also if u can add some new creeps it would be great
 
Bond009Date: Saturday, 20-Jul-2019, 10:13 PM | Message # 10
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Could add some new creeps, i had a couple i mind a long time ago. You have any in mind?

 
DooMsDate: Sunday, 21-Jul-2019, 3:14 AM | Message # 11
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Dragons, furbolg, witch and why not add a new tier too, it product low quantity of units but with magic attack
 
t33vs1erDate: Monday, 22-Jul-2019, 5:38 PM | Message # 12
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So playing 4.1 even more, i realized this Version was released prematurily. It is less balanced than 4.0c and the only remaining liable strategy is mass aoe

Even the best golemers are playing AOE now, same goes for techers. OK going HK is still somewhat doable.

But ok. Let me first adress Bonds Points regarding footmen 5.5:
- in footmen, you may have equally strong AOE but again you cannot pick 2 crazy AOE's. you can only have one at best.
- In footemen you cannot combine 2 aoes With a crazy ultimate.. or rarely…
- and here is a big one, in footemen you cannot combine 2 crazy AOES With Divine Shield and Wind walk! In footmen you cannot just run in, drop 2 (!) crazy aoe's ansurvives easily - you just can't.

That's one big difference that is crucial.

Add to the fact that most 5.5 games nowadays are single draft mode, which doesn't always allow you to pick the heros With best aoe, and! you cannot have a full team of each player having the same crazy AOE's!
In CHF you can. Major difference!

Now onto CHF:
- Everything got buffed and nerfed aside from AOE it turns out.
- You even consider nerfing water elementals! Why? it is perhaps the only good change! The only summon that aoe cannot kill in 2 strikes!
- Serpent Wards was the way for techers to get gold to solo tech without pooling. rip 4.1 has forced me to stack With players unless i wanted to mass AOE as this is the only liabable solo strat atm.
- Serpent Wards deal as much damage as a footy! Say what? they were never imba, as they could get easily focused Down by heroes in mass (range that).
- serpents Wards becomes useless lategame anyway…

THE GRANITE GOLEM is now another Counter to tech because you cannot eat it With turtle. You can barely web it  because newts now die like flies. totally useless unit.

So yeah things just got worse.
- Newts now cost 3 Food... if you golem you can only make one at best...
- They die easily to aoe (ofcourse, AOE is what this game is all about)
- Blank golem dies faster...
- golem too…

and golems are nerfed… in itself, but there is another hidden nerf in there… namely that all teams get more gold and more exp post mass, making it harder to rush. goleming is all about those rushes. fail to rush and you lose the game.

so basically, not only is the Whole way 4.1 is built making it harder to golem, i.e. the situation/scenario makes it harder, but the golemer will also have weaker golems!. and to the solo golemer who used serpent Wards to afford golems… well RIP.

But hey what about healwave? i feel it is nerfed too. Why?

Oh and lets move on to teching. Teching has always been hard in aoe filled games. true. But back in the days you had fiends when players were lower Level. now you get fiends way to late to enjoy the little power-spike those gave you, because you will be dealing With Level 7 heroes most likely. The Power spike is weaker… and it only grows weaker as the game og on.

Higher hero Levels post mass benefits aoe players more than the guys who Techs! this is key to understand. Another buff aoe players will enjoy.

Basically, most games where one Techs, the techer will lose, even in stacked team. sad right?

Suggestions:
- serpent Wards back to what they were (although water elementals are a decent replacement atm)
- Nerf all aoe With at least 20% after Level 3... or grant 20% more Magic immunity to units
- allow player to tech earlier.. this one is a must.
- and make it a bit cheaper, 750 gold for tier, and 1200 or something for t2.
- golems back to what they were. although newts should be 2 Food and cost 425 gold - that's ok.
- Make cost not cost Food... why?
- Make unit exp item cheaper - nobody uses it. Also allow the player to use 2 charges right after the other (so that i dont have to use my ally hero to do it - it is just annoying)
- Buff the remaining summons

Personally at this current state, I have been a bit demotivated to play. It just is not funny to play. I hope this gets fixed

teeVz
 
Bond009Date: Tuesday, 23-Jul-2019, 0:29 AM | Message # 13
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Quote t33vs1er ()
So playing 4.1 even more, i realized this Version was released prematurily. It is less balanced than 4.0c and the only remaining liable strategy is mass aoe


Teevz, come on man.. look at the change log for 4.1, look at the spells list all the buffs done were to things other than AoE's and some AoEs were nerfed. There were so many other balance changes and fixes in 4.1 that made it better as well, units were buffed a bit as well. I dont know about it being released prematurely as its the biggest version ever done by at least 6x, i think if anything it was way too long overdue. That was maybe part of the problem is its too much change all at once but all needed changes. One of the biggest contributors to this change log was F00ty_reb0rn which he was skilled and knew the game well also. We didnt just think of random balance changes for the lolz, 4.1 is more balanced no doubt, but i wont argue that AoE's may still be stronger than they should, but no worse than older ver's if anything its a little better.

AoEs are a bit hard to balance because of some of the things you mentioned about 5.5, 1 or 2 spells isnt that bad but if someone gets 3 aoe's or each player on a team gets 2 AoEs and all works together well then thats 6 AoE's hitting units and that is going to do some damage regardless how weak i make AoEs.

Instead of a Free for all with picking spells I probably need to make the main normal mode where each team can only pick each spell once at least for their first hero.. So if red picks a Carrion wave or serp wards blue and teal then can't. I thought about making that a mode many years ago but just did -SDS mode at the time but that should probably be the main game to make it much more balanced..
Then make the way the game is now a mode as -FFA so then its free for all skills picking.

I could also give all units a 10-15% spell reduction and then NE a bit more since they already have a spell reduction, so that would in turn nerfs all AoE's to units across the board by 10-15%. I may just try that first for next version to see how it goes..

Quote t33vs1er ()
- You even consider nerfing water elementals! Why? it is perhaps the only good change! The only summon that aoe cannot kill in 2 strikes!- Serpent Wards was the way for techers to get gold to solo tech without pooling. rip 4.1 has forced me to stack With players unless i wanted to mass AOE as this is the only liabable solo strat atm.
- Serpent Wards deal as much damage as a footy! Say what? they were never imba, as they could get easily focused Down by heroes in mass (range that).
- serpents Wards becomes useless lategame anyway…


I may have buffed water too much because i didnt just give them 75% spell reduction i think i also gave them better everything and aoe splash damage, they might be ok i guess but it was a bigger change than i expected lol
I honestly didnt nerf serpant wards that much how are they so bad now? They used to rape mass pretty bad in old versions even more so than AoE's so i nerfed them slightly. Pros would always get them because they were OP for mass, pros dont just get weak stuff they get strong stuff and serp wards were a main go-to spell which flags it as stronger than most others. i either needed to nerf them slightly or buff all other summons which i started to do. What do you think wrecks serp wards so bad? I can undo that change and see if it affected them that bad.

Quote t33vs1er ()
THE GRANITE GOLEM is now another Counter to tech because you cannot eat it With turtle. You can barely web it because newts now die like flies. totally useless unit.


this was a mistake from doing something else that affected this, it will be fixed next ver.

Quote t33vs1er ()
- Newts now cost 3 Food... if you golem you can only make one at best...- They die easily to aoe (ofcourse, AOE is what this game is all about)
- Blank golem dies faster...
- golem too…


newts are 2 food, make sure its real 4.1 not old beta5, i didnt change newts to die easier from AoE they still have 75% spell reduction. Blank went from 5 armor to 4 armor, thats it. It shouldnt really die faster from that, also it gets ups from defense tech upgrades.

Quote t33vs1er ()
so basically, not only is the Whole way 4.1 is built making it harder to golem, i.e. the situation/scenario makes it harder, but the golemer will also have weaker golems!. and to the solo golemer who used serpent Wards to afford golems… well RIP.


A lot of those golem nerfs were before some of the other counter were created, i could probably put them back and it would still be ok.

Quote t33vs1er ()
But hey what about healwave? i feel it is nerfed too. Why?


all in your head bro lol its not in the change log (do ctrl F to search) and you can compare old heal stats to what they are now.

Quote t33vs1er ()
Oh and lets move on to teching. Teching has always been hard in aoe filled games. true. But back in the days you had fiends when players were lower Level. now you get fiends way to late to enjoy the little power-spike those gave you, because you will be dealing With Level 7 heroes most likely. The Power spike is weaker… and it only grows weaker as the game og on.Higher hero Levels post mass benefits aoe players more than the guys who Techs! this is key to understand. Another buff aoe players will enjoy.
Basically, most games where one Techs, the techer will lose, even in stacked team. sad right?


there is a bit more money too, use that to get the unit XP and add some HP to the units you're rushing with. If you win mass there can still be lvl 4-5 heros after mass sometimes.
Teching was never a easy thing to do without a competent team so that hasn't changed its like that in 5.5 too, but if you have a good team teching is still the trump card that wins games more so than anything else.

Quote t33vs1er ()
Suggestions:- serpent Wards back to what they were (although water elementals are a decent replacement atm)
- Nerf all aoe With at least 20% after Level 3... or grant 20% more Magic immunity to units
- allow player to tech earlier.. this one is a must.
- and make it a bit cheaper, 750 gold for tier, and 1200 or something for t2.
- golems back to what they were. although newts should be 2 Food and cost 425 gold - that's ok.
- Make cost not cost Food... why?
- Make unit exp item cheaper - nobody uses it. Also allow the player to use 2 charges right after the other (so that i dont have to use my ally hero to do it - it is just annoying)
- Buff the remaining summons


- i forget how serp wards were nerfed help point out changes and ill change them back.
- lets start with a 15% nerf to aoes for units and see what that does, better to take little steps and not end up with a weird flop ver thats too drastic.
- players can tech after 5 mins and mass ends a little after 5 mins, how is teching before mass over going to help? when should it be available? mass doesnt even start until nearly 4 mins.
- yeah t1 and t2 could stand to be a little cheaper for sure.
- unit xp is a delicate balance item.. used right it could OP af, esp with a pro team and healing waves and Resurrection even foots can become unstoppable early game. It scares me to make it too cheap.
- but yeah i could take the cd time away its not really needed
- in the new notes most the other summons were buffed a little but some still probably need more of a buff. Help make exact points to help out if you want, i dont have as much time as i used to with analyzing it all and thinking of ways to buff. Even bad ideas may help spark good ones.

Overall i appreciate the feedback but you gotta relax on bad mouthing the game and just give exact things as examples that are the problem like above.
Also when i played with you more in the past you tend to leave right after you dont see an easy win and give up way too soon and dont try hard to make a come back to make it to mid and late game. You should more, you put too much weight on the early game and may not learn or notice some things at different stages of the game because of that.
It might be a waste of time sometimes and esp if you have a crap team mate but you can defiantly learn stuff sometimes when putting the struggle in.


 
DooMsDate: Tuesday, 23-Jul-2019, 5:59 AM | Message # 14
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The truth is 40% of players left chf coz they don't like 4.1, 20% keep hosting 4.0c or 4.0a and only 40% play 4.1 ( new players, noobs and mb 2-3 pros). Ik u spent a lot of time on 4.1 but it's the worst version ever.
 
Bond009Date: Tuesday, 23-Jul-2019, 10:49 AM | Message # 15
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Quote DooMs ()
The truth is 40% of players left chf coz they don't like 4.1, 20% keep hosting 4.0c or 4.0a and only 40% play 4.1 ( new players, noobs and mb 2-3 pros). Ik u spent a lot of time on 4.1 but it's the worst version ever.


Some truth to this, i think a good 50% or more have been gone since bots were killed and they left thinking CHF was gone and wc was f'ed without bots, so that doesnt help things. Then it doesnt help the CHF community must be lazier than the 5.4/5.5 because they host way more often than ppl that like CHF because that game was always way behind so they were already used to hosting inhouses all the time. 5.4/5.5 wasn't even on the map in the top 50 wc3 games for the past decade that CHF was popular.

And then the rest above is about right, people still hosting 4.0a and 4.0c because the maps were hackable. 4.1 has a new encryption that so far doesn't seem like people spoof hacks into the map. So people like Airbus that liked hosting the fake 4.0c that was really 4.0a (with all the bugs and glitches) cant do that anymore with 4.1.

Also you guys are good players now but back in the day there were full pro teams that had endless time to play and get good, and made a whole different balance to the game. A lot of the changes in 4.1 were geared around an old player base from 2014. 4.1 was too big of a project to do all at once and i got busy so I took a break and never came back to it until now. So i dont mind making changes or reverting some things back if they seem like creeps are too nerf'ed etc.

Between back in the day and what i did to finish 4.1 a few months ago 100's of hours went into making 4.1 so i'm not reverting a version back, we have to build from this moving forward. The change log you see if actually 3x the size for me with notes i had to make for coding or steps to take on certain things and code fixes that would mean nothing to most people so a ton of work went into 4.1 to make the new platform. To generalize it as the worst version is wrong. It can be easily fixed by making a few big changes to creeps and spell resistance to units which will nerf aoe's across the board. Those few things that wouldn't take much time would change the game play big time.

Help me make a list of the big things most hated about 4.1 and we can work on them. Lets make 4.1a great again! smile lol


 
Forum » CHF Development and Discussion » Balancing Current Game Content » Why I Dislike CHF 4.1 (Balance issues)
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