Note: this post is written by Cyray but includes ideas collected from F00ty_R3b0rn, Soundwaves, and Acccreate. Acccreate and Soundwaves approved of my ideas but I don't know about F00ty_R3b0rn.
The impetus for this post was the discussion of ELO on the chf.ucoz.com forums (here), and I am writing in response to Bond009:
Quote"Bond009"
"Stacking is actually bad for ELO, it is based on a teams over all elo score. so if your team has someone with 1200 and 1400 and 1300 and you vs teams with less than 1000 you will gain very little elo when you win becuz your team is stacked, as where if you lose the low elo team will gain more elo from you. That concept is pretty balanced.. but ppl playing for wins and losses % ratio, thats where the incentive for stacking comes into play. Its really hard to think of how to make it better or 'fix' it."
This poorly constructed argument is full of inaccuracies and represents a crucial misunderstanding of the ELO system. Allow me to break down the ELO system and illustrate its true failings.
Problems with ELO
1. Those who are at the top of the ELO ladder, the ones who really care about their ELO have made alt accounts with very poor win/loss records and low ELO. On these accounts they intentionally lose games to bring their ELO down. They then give this account to one of their friends, go on their main account, and play together so that their high ELO account appears to be partnered with a complete beginner (someone of low elo). Then, they pick black arrow, rush pubs, mass wins, and their ELO shoots up. Examples of players who abuse using this method are [APF]-Walter, [APF]-Cesar, Adam_CZ, [FTL]-Roystom and others. While I have never abused in this way, I will admit that I often have had xMoNsteRRR, Cheesy-Gordia, and J.ST4X play on fresh 1,000 ELO alt accounts with me and it makes my ELO increase significantly quicker since the bot thinks I am soloing with beginners on my team. Also, it is very difficult to increase ELO now, in general. When the bot first came out it was easy to get your ELO up since most opponents had around 1,000 ELO (since ELO was new). However, now, most players have very low ELOs below 500, so when I beat them my ELO only increases (>1 point per game). You will notice that most of the top player's ELOs have stagnated recently; mine is stuck around 1800, Walter's shot up to 2400 but now it won't move any more, etc. You might respond by telling me that I should play against higher ELO players to improve my ranking. However this method is extremely slow still and is highly risky, so most players won't do it. For example: if I'm in the lobby and Cou, [APF]-Walter, and [FTL]-Roystom join, chances are I would leave the lobby. This is because if I manage to get lucky and solo them, my ELO might go up 3-5 points. But if I lose to them it will drop 20-40 points. It's not worth the risk. Players like F00ty_R3b0rn, despite being at the pro level, cannot increase their ELO. F00ty_R3b0rn often plays difficult games and solos against full stacked teams, but his ELO doesn't increase because he simply has too many losses (and for the aforementioned reasons as well). And even when you do win games, e.g. by soloing high elo players on the front page, your ELO will only go up ~2-5 points. When you beat pubs it goes up >1 point. This leaves players with only one option to increase their ELO: make smurf accounts, drop their ELO, and use them to boost one's main account by massing games a la tech rush. (Evidence that losing a game to pubs overly-punishes punishes players and winning against pros under-rewards them here)
2. ELO doesn't work properly in CHF because CHF is an FFA gametype. Teams are either made randomly or by stacking. If you stack you will have a better rank even if you earn less ELO per game, as evidenced by the fact that the top ten players are APF, TAS, TDT, and FTL players known to stack. All the top ELO players stack to some degree. And as mentioned previously, in the long run your ELO will benefit more if you mass games and keep beating pubs as opposed to playing more difficult games. So if you want a high ELO the best strategy is to just keep beating pubs even if your ELO goes up slightly slower, because in the long run its better than risking games against good players.
3. Another fact is that for a pub player, each game his or her teammates will change. Admins have a significant advantage because they can stack their team, ban players, abuse swap, etc. The playing field is unlevel because players are playing under different conditions. There are too many random factors (In lobby) and too much room for luck in CHF. ELO works better in games like DOTA because there are only 2 teams and very few admins in proportion to the overall player base; therefore, even if a few admins abused swap or other commands, it wouldn't affect a large proportion of the games. Admin stacking is also a problem because it discourages newer players from continuing to play CHF. New players have to deal with 3v1s constantly, and as we all know, getting rushed by a full stacked team is enough to make any man want to smash their keyboard and rage quit off battle.net. New player's heroes get sniped, they get wrecked in mass, they lose their bases too quickly and can't explore new builds or strategies. This happens perpetually on ClanHPMM bot because this bot has so many admins.
The Solution
F00ty proposed to !sp in the lobby of every game but that won't work because people want to play with their friends. However, if you do introduce the !sp command it should make the teams as even as possible according to players' ELOs. Otherwise these teams wouldn't necessarily be balanced; they would just be random.
This is the tried and true method that DotaCash uses and so it's been proven to work. (example here http://www.dotacash.com/home/ )
You need to have ClanHPMM run two bots: one for beginner players (like the current bot), and one that requires at least 25 games played and 1000+ ELO (so 0-0 alt accounts can't join) for more skilled players. These two bots would each have their own ladder. They would be called ClanHPMM Tier 1 Bot and Tier 2 Bot. Tier 2 bot will be just for pubs to relax and play a beginner level game. Tier 1 bot will be for higher skilled players to fight it out to determine who is truly the best CHF player/team. New players would start out playing on the Tier 2 bot until their ELO reached at least 1000 with 25 games under their belt. Then they would be granted access to the Tier 1 bot, but they could still play on the Tier 2 bot as well if they wanted to. The Tier 2 bot would also have an ELO cap of 1300 (the Tier 1 bot would have no ELO cap).
To get into Tier 1, a player would have to get their ELO above 1000. This would be a fun challenge for players because it would give a certain level of prestige to people in the top tier. Players would play more and fight hard to get into the more prestigious league. They could go to Playchf.tk and check their tier 2 stats to see how close they were to 1000 and see which other players were about to move to the higher tier. Also, by putting an ELO cap on the Tier 2 bot at 1300, players would have little incentive to keep playing on it and they would be pressured to come to the new bot. This will help the new bot fill faster, which is good because getting the bot to fill might be a challenge. But I think it's a challenge worth tackling. This is not a perfect solution, but it would solve many of major problems currently associated with your game and ELO system, for example:
1. The bot fills too fast right now and its impossible to join. If you have two bots it will take games perhaps 3-5 minutes to fill which is ideal (this is about the same amount of time that takes to find a game in league of legends, dota 2, etc). Right now ClanHPMM bot games fill in under 30 seconds which makes it impossible to play with friends or even alone unless you have admin. Even though the new bot will have a smaller player base (~750 players according to calculations on 1-13-2014), since these are more experienced players I think they would be willing to wait a bit longer in order to play a higher skilled, inhouse-esque match. I know I would, and I've heard the same sentiment expressed by many of my pro level friends.
2. Pros are discouraging new players from continuing to play the game because the new players just get stomped in 5 minutes. With a two tiered system, this problem would solve itself.
3. Games are too easy for pro players, or even players above pub level (like people in Clan HPMM). I can't sign on battle.net and have an enjoyable game because the competition level is so low. Us pros have to organize our own games these days and its hard since lots of players play on private servers, US East, West, Europe, and Asia, and we can't easily communicate with them in chat. Having two bots would be a fantastic, automated solution to this issue.
4. ELO doesn't show who the best players are. Right now [APF]-Walter, Vetealamierda, [APF]-Cesar, Terminator, and Nexsus are at the top of the ELO ladder. But I think we can all agree they are not the best players; all they do is make smurf accounts with negative ELO to boost their main accounts, mass games with tech rush, and abuse the broken ELO system. The best players are Soundwaves, Cou, Keep3r, F00ty_R3b0rn, and J.ST4X, but these players don't have the highest ELO because they don't mass games or use cheap tactics to boost. Keep3r isn't even on the front page because he started playing again after ELO was already around for a few months, so he couldn't enjoy getting easy ELO when all the pubs were still around 1,000.
5. This will solve the problem of alts since only accounts with 25 games and over 1000+ ELO can join. Cou and Random260 have spent a lot of time having to track down alts trying to snipe people, and so getting rid of most alts would give them one less thing to worry about. It would also improve the ELO system as a whole.
Oof big rant, but bond's quote isn't wrong. His post is true and it is the concept behind elo. People are just abusing the system, none of what you say is actually proving bond's post inaccurate.
I'm not hating on your post because there are probably some sound ideas in there i didn't read but none of the things bond says except maybe "Its really hard to think of how to make it better or to 'fix' it."
Adam_CZ, [FTL]-Roystom and others. While I have never abused
LOL me only play 7 games whit michaelpridee aka adam i abused ???
i never abuse elo low alt acc
-apf alt acc ( estimated 30 acc)
-lol cyray you are king alt acc whit tdt or no true ???
-soundwaves alt acc ( osetinas have much alt acc is boyfriend soundwaves)
-old team adam alt acc ( 20 alt acc)
-roystom i gift adam acc michaelpridee i play no more 7 - 10 games no more is abused ?? ( ftl-sharen gift account michael for appreciation for train)
QuoteYung ()
4. ELO doesn't show who the best players are. Right now [APF]-Walter, Vetealamierda, [APF]-Cesar, Terminator, and Nexsus are at the top of the ELO ladder. But I think we can all agree they are not the best players; all they do is make smurf accounts with negative ELO to boost their main accounts, mass games with tech rush, and abuse the broken ELO system. The best players are Soundwaves, Cou, Keep3r, F00ty_R3b0rn, and J.ST4X, but these players don't have the highest ELO because they don't mass games or use cheap tactics to boost. Keep3r isn't even on the front page because he started playing again after ELO was already around for a few months, so he couldn't enjoy getting easy ELO when all the pubs were still around 1,000.
LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL GREAT JOKE BEST PLAYERS ???? AJAJAJAJAJAJ
I can bet with anyone at my elo vs against any of them and gain steps. but here all are so fearful that they do not accept noobs
Message edited by [-FTL-]RoyStoM - Monday, 13-Jan-2014, 0:24 AM
Oof big rant, but bond's quote isn't wrong. His post is true and it is the concept behind elo. People are just abusing the system, none of what you say is actually proving bond's post inaccurate.
Some details are missing in his quote. Anyway you couldn't describe ELO system in only few sentences. And Sry to say that but I guess some people are simply not enough smart to understand ELO system...
@Stom What you did is only posting lies and accusing the others to use alts but what about yours (Picachu, rodolfoelreno, [-_-], blabla). Don't tell us garbadage, you played way more than 7 games with michael. -> http://www.delusional.com/
You are off topic and I guess it's could be reproofed since your posts are only senseless sentences and out thread. So go away OR write something about ELO System.
But well this quote just shows that you absolutly don't understand what's going on : "FIX ELO SISTEM , really impossible to win if not up trap . i win 1 game no win 1 point i win 0000.00.1% WTF! reset stats and fix elo sytem" stom quote
@Thread - Problems with ELO system are very well explained by Cyray and I guess now even a retarded player could understand why it doesn't work properly.
- I like the solution. But I already foresee the argue of random260 -> There are already too many bots (like clanhpmm, assasin-bot5, boiko-bot, and rof-bot) and it will split even more the community. So Facts are that actually bot fills very quickly and it's could be nice to try that tier 1 and tier 2 bots.
QuoteYung ()
Tier 1 bot will be for higher skilled players to fight it out to determine who is truly the best CHF player/team.
It wouldn't still determine who is truly the best CHF player / team but it would be way more representativ than actual rank.
QuoteYung ()
Pros are discouraging new players from continuing to play the game because the new players just get stomped in 5 minutes. With a two tiered system, this problem would solve itself.
This is kinda important. It's also another way to earn (or get back^^) news players
QuoteYung ()
Games are too easy for pro players, or even players above pub level (like people in Clan HPMM). I can't sign on battle.net and have an enjoyable game because the competition level is so low. Us pros have to organize our own games these days and its hard since lots of players play on private servers, US East, West, Europe, and Asia, and we can't easily communicate with them in chat. Having two bots would be a fantastic, automated solution to this issue.
A specific bot dedicated for iniciated players and a new CHF version could help a lot to bring back olds players
If you disable Ban command (add ban request instead) and this new bot (= less alt problems) you will have also less things to manage in future (Cou and random) I know it will take a bit time to create this but isn't it the work of bot-owner ? (just like update chf version is the work of map owner)
Thanks to random, Cou and all donators for actual bot also Current CHF APM ! The Legend is R3b0Rn ! http://imageshack.com/a/img401/3523/vzsc.png
Message edited by F00ty_R3b0rn - Monday, 13-Jan-2014, 5:40 AM
RoyStoM;57180]I can bet with anyone at my elo vs against any of them and gain steps. but here all are so fearful that they do not accept noobs
Oh sorry Roy i forgot about you and your precious ego.
top players are f00ty keeper cou roy soundwaves, then me and jst4x after.
i dont know anyone who can vengeance tech and creep as well as these players. but thats not the point of this thread anyway
Quotea_chinese_kid ()
Oof big rant, but bond's quote isn't wrong. His post is true and it is the concept behind elo. People are just abusing the system, none of what you say is actually proving bond's post inaccurate.
well yes. bond would be right except for the fact that people are abusing the elo system, so in this case his idealistic description of how the elo system is 'supposed to work' is useless.
QuoteF00ty_R3b0rn ()
I know it will take a bit time to create this but isn't it the work of bot-owner ? (just like update chf version is the work of map owner)
i agree.
QuoteF00ty_R3b0rn ()
But I already foresee the argue of random260 -> There are already too many bots (like clanhpmm, assasin-bot5, boiko-bot, and rof-bot) and it will split even more the community. So Facts are that actually bot fills very quickly and it's could be nice to try that tier 1 and tier 2 bots.
Yes i expect random will say something like this. if the new bot isnt filling fast enough we can lower the requirements to enter, so instead of 25 games (on second thought, i think wins is better than just games played, so maybe 25 wins) and 1000+ elo required we can make it 15 wins and 900+ ELO. If we make the entry requirements low at first many people will discover the new bot and join it fast (also if we advertise it well), and we can raise the standards later once the bot has people playing on it.
also the bot is filling so fast...today i had to wait 30 minutes to play a game because i didnt join fast enough...the bot literally fills in 3 seconds sometimes. so i think thats not a big problem and if it becomes one we can always go back to just one bot.
QuoteF00ty_R3b0rn ()
It wouldn't still determine who is truly the best CHF player / team but it would be way more representativ than actual rank.
yes. the new system isnt perfect but its a whole lot better than what we have now. any system that shows apf walter as the greatest chf player is obviously ridiculous
to be honest bond and random, you both have monopolies over chf bots and over chf mapmaking...so its pretty unfair and dictatorial of you guys not to respond to the communities demands.
we have been waiting for 4.1 for over a year, bond i know you are busy but you owe it to the community to at least give us a timetable of when you think you could finish it by.
and random instead of just doing whatever you want arbitrarily, you should listen to the community. We all want a 2 tier system, especially the top players who play on your bot the most. im so damn bored of pub stomping, i want my inhouses back like the good old days...a two tiered system is best for pub players, midskill players, and pros alike.
thank you bond and random for all you have done for the chf community also ^^
-----------------
EDIT: i just emailed the dotacash owner and asked him how many people he has in his tier 1 ladder, and how long it takes his tier 1 games to fill. He said he has 250 players and it takes approx 10 min for the bot to fill. League of legends highest tier has 50 players and it takes ~15 min for one to find a game at this tier but top LoL and DoTA players are definitely more active than top chf players.
I think we should include the top 1,000 chf players and the bot should fill fast. So random if you can program it like that that would be great, just to take the top 1,000 players from tier 2 with at least 10-25 wins (so no alts) and give them access to tier 1.
this would be anyone above ELO 957 atm. Most players around 957 ELO have 40-70% winning records which is good enough for now. if it fills fast enough we could change it to the top 500 players which would be anyone above 1040 ELO (50-80% players)
Ps there should be some reward for getting top 20 on new tier 1 elo, maybe admin provlege or something name: james mcgovern
Message edited by CYRAYTHEKING - Monday, 13-Jan-2014, 7:55 AM
Guys i have no time to read this crap Elo is and never will be fair remove it.
Added (13-Jan-2014, 11:33 AM) --------------------------------------------- "top players are f00ty keeper cou roy soundwaves, then me and jst4x after.
i dont know anyone who can vengeance tech and creep as well as these players. but thats not the point of this thread anyway" Isnt true : Many good players can use it Isnt hard controll them even without hot keys. Just put in a group of units [10] and go ahead
@Stom What you did is only posting lies and accusing the others to use alts but what about yours (Picachu, rodolfoelreno, [-_-], blabla). Don't tell us garbadage, you played way more than 7 games with michael. -> http://www.delusional.com/
OMG REALLY STUPID ???? GODD as may be people so stupid !!!!
you are very stupid to write on old themes that
RODOLFO = HAVE 2 YEARS at that time there was elo?? rodolfo is back only in Christmas ok retard ?? 27wins/6lose is abusee ??? i have low elo omg you have lowIQ
pikachu ??? OMG U STUPIDDDD PIKACU IS ALEXANDEREX FROM LIMA-PERU - I FROM PERU-Tacna
me this implying that I had to travel almost 2 days to the capital to play alt?? pls SUICIDE TRASH PLAYER
[-_-] omg This subject concerns me has serious mental problems pls all check [-_-] exists in the elo????
etc etc ?? what acc stupid noob scared player and low micro shut up F....
